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51 Cards in this Set
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I have been playing slightly laggy, nothing really crazy, but quite a bit of openraising. I reraised villains button raise from BB, he folded and remarked that he didn't like having another sLAA at the table. So apparently he considers himself SLAA, but he seems quite solid to me by 6max standards. He also said he has 400 hands on me, so he uses pokertracker. So far he has shown a bit of resistance to my raises, but it has been of the passive kind. Button ($674.94) SB ($988.45) BB ($400) Hero ($492.90) MP ($404.20) Preflop: Hero is UTG with Ah, Ac. SB posts a blind of $2. Hero raises to $15, 2 folds, SB (poster) calls $13, BB calls $11. Flop: ($45) Js, 4d, 9s (3 players) SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $40, SB calls $40, BB folds. Turn: ($125) 9h (2 players) SB checks, Hero bets $100, SB, hesitates a good while then raises to $450. Hero?
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thought about checking behind, and I do it a lot. All the draws convinced me to bet. In my mind it's pretty close, no? it breaks down like this. This is a moderate to heavy drawing flop. there are alot of possibilities for villain to take one off
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Continued1
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Villain claims he's "sLAA," (by the way, never good to be at a table full of people using PT acronyms, i think) so he could be taking one off with a wide range of hands. ****Some hands we're not too concerned with that villain may think are stronger on the flop: KQ, KT, A9, A4, 87 pretyt unlikely any of those check call that big a bet, but KQ may think overs are live and KT may think king is live, A9 or A4 may think you'll shut down with anything that cant beat tp. fine. it would take a real fish to check call 78 there but while establishing equities against always nice considering those types of hands. others which have considerable more equity
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Continued2
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What we know is we raised preflop, he called, one other guy called. We potted a draw heavy board when checked to us, and villain called. ~abstrating a read, like villain always leads with sets, or always checkraises top pair, or whatnot, it's very tough to eliminate hands~ we can eliminate hands like A5 or things like that which have no business being in the hand. But really, alot of hands which WILL call a bet, like flush draw, straight draw, or both, make them make a mistake. beauty of 5handed play is you set up opponents like this from when yo usit down (or maybe im the only one) I dont set up raising alot p f in order to win a flop bet and hopefully a river bet out of a busted QT or overplayed KJ. I bet and make them move on a draw or a weaker pair (or oddly played KK, for example) or calldown w/ 2 outs (like QJ) or w/ 8 to 15 or so. Alot of potential hands, few of which are beating you, will call a bet, and they will be making a mistake. Rather then let them make the mistake on the river, where your potential ear nis lower, make them make the mistake now.
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Continued3
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In addition, by checking here, hands which WOULDNT call a bet, but are live (even the KQ example) have an "equity share" of the pot. The pot is 120 or so now, why give up 10% to a 4 outer? thats 3bbs. I dont know about you, but i want whats mine. if T8 folds to a bet, its still better to bet then give up 8 outs, or roughly 20%, or 20 dollars (5 bbs). The reason it's more a bet here then if the board was rainbow, also, is a bulk of the hands which can call a flop bet are still "drawing," whereas on a rainbow board (dry board) it's more likely you're being trapped. hand protection is less important then stack commitedness. betting pot on a drawless board then getting bounced in is likely a fold, but the first mistake was the bet. ANYWAY, there are boards to control the pot size, and then there are situations where whether you'll be c/r or not doesnt matter, you need to worr yabout the initial bet.
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Continued4
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FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH, once you get c/r, it's time to reevaluate the situation, player, and odds. 5handed vs this type esp. when top pair and underpairs/overpairs have just 5% equity and 99 is now so unliekly it's very often a call. sometimes do you lose to J9 or 44? sure, but it's deifnately a profitable call especially dead money in the pot. also, i would probably fire a 2nd barrel herre with AK, obviously folding to a c/r though. if my opponent would reraise (especially image) QQ+ i would bet/call with AJ, too. sometimes do I get trapped? sure. do i catch people with 2outers? most of the time, yes. this was a little long, but the principle behind pot control is more often the "if this pot gets real big, i just cant see how i can win unless im playing poker with forrest gump," but this board given so many draws -> and subsequent hand protection (and opponent perhaps viewing THEIR move as hand protection) its bet bet bet. What draws? There's a flush draw, that's about it, unless this guy is calling raises with QT or T8. The fact that the board paired means anyone with a J only has two outs, so you don't even have to worry about some sort of two pair on the river. On top of that, this guy is lag and views you as lag. He'll bet the river often with missed draws to get you to fold A high, and he might also make a big move on this turn with or without a 9. I'll give my views on this since I usually advocate a turn check.
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Continued5
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on this turn I would bet and I would likely call any reraise. If villain is thinking player, there is no way he does not lead with a set on the flop. there is no indication that I would continuation bet in to 3 way pot on that board and he would hate to have BB hit the draw for free. once the 9 hits, he tries to check raise us with a boat? gives us bad odds even if we have something like AKs? true I get broke to a 9 here but thats the only hand I get broke to. now I do understand what wtfsvi is saying. he is saying that there is a wide variety of hands that sb is leading the river with. and I agree with him that if villain won't call the turn bet with a draw or a lone J, then I think check behind is not bad. yes I give a free shot for him to outdraw me but the thing is the times he doesn't outdraw me, hes bluffing or blocking the river 100% of the time, thus it makes sense for me to check behind if this assumption is true. Assume no reads on villain
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MP ($375.60) CO ($394) Button ($425.80) SB ($406.80) BB ($325.70 ero ($718.40) Preflop: Hero is UTG with Kc, Kd. SB posts a blind of $2. Hero raises to $16, 4 folds, BB calls $12. Flop: ($34) 3d, Ad, 4d (2 players) BB checks, Hero bets $30, BB calls $30. Turn: ($94) Qc (2 players)BB checks, Hero checks. River: ($94) Qd (2 players) BB checks, Hero ??
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i would bet and fold to a checkraise. why are people are afraid about getting checkraised? no one checks a set shorthanded 3 handed, he doesn't have a straight flush, and he didn't hit runner runner queen. unless he was mr.trickster you will virtually never see a c.r here (if i eat my words here, "wow" ) bet and be happy because people make terrible calls with a wide range of hands here, as in possibly 9d and the such. the reason i am saying to fold to a c/r (even though i would expect one close to never) is because he simply can not be c/r a worse hand for value, and for a guy to pull off a big bluff on this board, when you easily could have AQ, AA, QQ, Kd, Jd etc, all dthings that people normally (meaning the K and Jd ) dont fold, takes alot of guts and stupidity someone needs to show me to be a donk first. so it means it must be a superman who can check 33 or 44 all the way to the river to ellicit value from the flush and checkraise. but really, this rarely happens, so most of the time bet and be happy when middle lfushes try to pick you off. BTW, i like the bet of 55, i see exactly what others are saying, but it's like the perfect price for someone to pay sheriff.
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the basic idea of value bluffing is
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that you make a small raise, usually on the flop, against an opponent you assume has a weak holding (such as 2nd pair or a mid pp underpair). You want your opponent to call the small raise with this hand, because his odds of improving on the turn are slim. Then you take the pot away from him on the turn with a solid bet. Your flop raise is actually a value bet. Since you will win the pot on the turn, you want your opponent to put more money into the pot on the flop. This is something that has quickly become a favorite move of mine, so let's discuss.
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One of the problems with bluffing (and I mean straight bluffing, not semi-bluffing or continuation betting)
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is that you often risk a lot of chips to win not so many chips. Bluffs need to exceed at a high rate to be +EV. The pot is $4, villian bets $4, and you decide to bluff. So you make a raise to $15. You're now risking $15 to win $8. This bluff must succeed more than 65% of the time to be +EV. We can combat this by making a small value raise on the flop. If the pot is $4 and villian bets $4, raise it to $9. Villian will call. Now the pot is $22. On the turn, we bet $14 and take it down. On the turn, we are risking $14 to win $13 (not $22, because we can't count our original $9). This is obviously much better than risking $15 to win $8. In fact, in total, we risked $23 (14+9) to win $13, which is STILL a better ratio than 15-8. This is obviously a read-dependent situation. We need an opponent who we can read as weak on the flop, and who will also lay down on the turn. Nearly all opponents will call the small flop raise
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Here are the benefits of value raising the flop vs. making a large flop raise.
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1) By value raising and manipulating the bet amounts properly, we can achieve a better risk-reward ratio than with a large flop raise. 2) By betting twice, we show a lot of strength. 3) By betting twice, we give our opponent two chances to fold. Even though the play is designed to get a call and then a fold, it's fine if villian just folds on the flop for obvious reasons. 4) In SSNL, big bets are often considered bluffs. Smaller value bets are often considered to be exactly that: value bets. I find that medium bets, such as our $14 into the $22 pot on the turn, recieve a lot of respect. We can manipulate this by making moderately strong bets as bluffs, and big overbets with the nuts.
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This play works very well in live 1/2nl games against players
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who make weak $5 and $10 bets at pots on the flop, and in online games where players make weak 1BB stabs at pots. A good note that I take on players is "smallballer". Meaning they underbet alot with made hands, hoping to induce aggression. Obviously not a good move against these type players.
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I’m going to write a short piece on C/R vs. b/3b with both monsters and combo draws.
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Firstly though, I want to point out a general fact that is a lot of the time overlooked on this forum. Every1 (including me and a lot of the well respected posters) on this board keep harping on about playing combo draws and monsters the same way. We justify saying that by spouting the words “shania”, “metagame” or “game theory” usually. However, it’s quite obvious, that with the 2 hands we are looking for 2 different things. When we have a monster, we want to get paid off, and when we have a combo draw, we want folding equity. Against a very good opponent (one that is better than us or as good as us), then playing your draws/big hands the same way is the line that achieves optimal +EV. However, against a donk, this is not true. For instance, vs. a calling station that will always stack off with TP, what’s the point getting all in on the flop with 12-15 outs when you know he will call, when instead you could draw with good odds and stack him when you hit, b/c he’s that bad. Similarly, vs. a nit, there’s no point bet/3betting all in with a set on a dry board, b/c you’re letting him fold his overpair. OK, now that I’ve got that out of the way, let me tell you about some of the considerations when deciding whether to b/3b or C/R:
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combo draws and good hands on the flop- Stack Sizes (in relation to the pot)
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: This is really important. There’s nothing worse than C/R a board with a combo draw, only to get called, have a lot of money behind on the turn, and the turn bricks. You’re aim it normally to get AI on the flop with both a combo draw and a monster, so if unsure, it’s best to take the line that that gets you all in with the most ease. Eg. You have $20 behind and the pot is $10, then a C/R is the best option, as it gives your opponent a chance to cbet/bluff and your C/R will easily be all in. If however you have $95 behind and the pot is $17, then a bet/3bet is better. Lead for $17 and then after even a minraise, you’re 3bet all in, is a PSB. The other reason that stack sizes are important, is to figure out the FE you have on a draw. Obviously, the shorter stacked the opponent is, the less FE you’re going to have
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combo draws and good hands on the flop -Dead Money:
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This again is VERY important and a point overlooked regularly. You want to take the line that traps the most dead money in the pot. E.g. Let’s say that UTG raises, and gets 3 callers, you call in the SB with a suited connector, BB fold. You flop an OESFD. If you lead out, and the PFR raises, then the 3 callers inbetween will all fold. If, however, you check, the PFR bets, then hopefully a few of the players inbetween will call with a draw/weak TP or whatever, and when you then C/R, you trap all of their money in the pot. The opposite of this is also true. I.e. you call the button’s raise in the SB and 3 others also call it, then it’s best to lead out, as you trap the most dead money in the pot that way.
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combo draws and good hands on the flop -The Turn
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One of the biggest problems with a bet/3bet line, is if our opponent doesn’t oblige, and he just flat calls our lead. Here, reads are VERY important. If you think he is the type to just call on the flop with TP, then there’s little point making a big bet on the turn getting him to fold it, as it’s very likely he won’t. It is instead better to bet an amount that prices you in, or maybe just check/call. If however, you think that you’re opponent is floating you on the flop, then it might be best (albeit very high variance) to C/R the turn.
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combo draws and good hands on the flop -C/R with other hands
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I see so many posts on this board that say “Well I flopped TP, but with a weak kicker, so I checked. He then bet, which I think could be a cbet, so C/R him to find out where I stand”. IMO this is a terrible (and expensive) reason to C/R. A much better line is to just lead the flop, or if you want to snap off the cbet, then call, and lead a blank turn. While this line is quite transparent at higher levels, it is VERY VERY effective at SSNL. Lastly, I’d like to introduce you to the dbitel rule of check-raising: “By default, never C/R, only C/R if you have a very good reason to do so
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initial raiser is unknown, bb is a very strange huge stack donk 92/33/1.5. he only miniraises and he hasn't shown down a lot. he's not scared of betting big. BB ($353.87) UTG ($163.10) MP ($78.83) CO ($98.50) Button ($128.40) Hero ($106.60) Preflop: Hero is SB with Ks, Kc. Hero posts a blind of $0.50. 1 fold, MP calls $1, CO raises to $4, 1 fold, Hero (poster) raises to $12.5, BB calls $12, MP folds, CO calls $9. Flop: ($40) 4c, 9d, As (3 players) Hero ???
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I used to always bet here. My new line is to check and try to get to showdown as cheap as possible. We have a hand with some showdown potential, but don't really want a big pot. I check, call a reasonable sized flop bet (we would have bet this anyway). Then, hope to check/check turn and see a cheap river. i have no idea what the point of a flopbet is id do it with 88 and there's nothing with outs to beat it really villain never folds an A here Given a blank turn... If villan checks the turn, I bet. If villan pots it, it can go anywhich way (raise/fold/call). I need a great reason to raise though and it is definitely villan dependent. Obviously I'm not checking this flop always with an AK. It is better to check it with a weak Ace where there isnt as much value betting all three streets " " (xorbie).
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How to play KK after the flop comes A-x-x, continued
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I'll give my thoughts on this situation. I would normally check this flop as I see it as a WA/WB situation and I do not think that we will get called often enough on this flop when we are WA. A comptent TAG understands that this is a great spot to c-bet and occasionally may call here with a hand like 88 to see what you do on turn. Most of the time, however, I think they are dumping it. All depends on the player. Also, by checking on the flop we pretty much define out hand as a decently large PP that is not AA. With a smaller PP normally people bet this flop to represent the ace and try to win the pot right there while with a hand like TT-KK we have much better showdown value so may check behind more often. Now when the TAG fires the turn it means one of two things: a) He has an ace(or better) and wants to protect his hand from free cards b) He thinks you have a smaller PP and will probably fold it so he may bet here as a bluff with any two cards. Calling here is pretty iffy and I'm not sure if I like it because we probably should be folding for a river bet and I don't much good in calling turn to fold river. Then again we do have position so we can take the free showdown if offered. The next question is what to do if checked again on a blankish turn. I think a bet is necessary here so that we don't voluntarily give villian 2 free cards that he doesn't deserve if he doesn't have ace, rather has some weird mid pair hand instead. Then we will be checked to on the river and be able to take our free showdown 90% of the time. At this point I think that we will get called by a hand like 67 or JT since we checked the flop and decided to wake up on turn which looks really shady....
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UTG+2 ($21.37) MP1 ($51.51) MP2 ($66.24) MP3 ($49.35) CO ($35) Hero ($51.40) SB ($55.70) BB ($25.22) UTG ($42.75) UTG+1 ($48.65) Preflop: Hero is Button with Ac, Qc. SB posts a blind of $0.25. 6 folds, CO calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.5, 1 fold, BB calls $2, CO folds. Flop: ($5.75) 6d, 9s, 9d (2 players) BB checks, Hero bets $5, BB calls $5. Turn: ($15.75) Qd (2 players)
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I don't like playing big pots with marginal hands. trouble is, if you bet say 2/3 pot or $10 here and he calls, you are left with about $35 and pot will be $35 on river. then what do you do? fold to any bet on river? I mean do you guys always bet again when scarecard hits? don't you find yourself giving a lot of implied odds to draws on the flop? if the flop came 6 9 Q with 2 diamonds, and turn came 9 of diamonds, do you guys bet again when checked to? also consider his likelyhood of calling your turn bet with TT, 88, 77 vs his likelyhood of leading in to you on blank river had you checked turn behind. I think TT, JJ, 88, 77 all either block river or call a river bet. but if you don't believe this to be the case then turn bet is better.
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Hero ($225.45) Button ($213) SB ($180.70) BB ($133.35) UTG ($222) Preflop: Hero is MP with 9h, 7h. 1 fold, Hero raises to $7, 1 fold, SB raises to $22, 1 fold, Hero calls $15. Flop: ($46) 8h, Ks, 3h (2 players) SB checks, Hero checks. Turn: ($46) 5c (2 players) SB checks, Hero bets $32, SB calls $32. River: ($110) 4d (2 players) SB checks, Hero bets $95
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Didn't want to get c/r on the flop. When he checks turn I'm pretty sure he has something like TT-QQ or maybe AQ. We like? No meaningful read yet.
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Button ($83.70) SB ($113.85) Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Ac, Kc. 1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $3.5, Hero calls $3.50, 3 folds, SB calls $3, BB calls $2.50. Flop: ($14) Kd, As, 7s (4 players) SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets $10, Hero raises to $25, SB raises to $110.35, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $85.50 (All-In)
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Also, I usually don't call preflop but I felt like it this time. Don't hate, now I realize we're too short for me to call. Do you honestly think SB is c/r'ing the preflop raiser who was followed by a raise with just a draw? That's two people showing a lot of strength on a board with an ace and king. Most people just assume any preflop raise has AK, and then this guy shows no fear of the bet and raise. I just don't see anyone doing this with a FD. I think at least one of them has a set the vast majority of time.
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Preflop Hero is dealt 7d 8d in BB. 2 folds, CO raises to $3.5 , 2 folds, Hero calls. Flop ($7.5) (2 players) Js 7c 2h Hero??? Now, we have a lot of different possible lines here. We can just check/fold. We can bet/fold, we can c/c lead turn or we can C/R flop.
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1st, lets look at these lines, before we discuss the "donk" line. C/R flop. Out of all the lines, this is my least favourite. We basically turn out hand into a stone cold bluff. Worse hands next to never call and better hand next to never fold. I also dislike it b/c it's "expensive". In fact, I think that out of all the possible lines, this 1 costs us the most. The problem is that we have 2 more streets to go after this 1. So if he just calls, we are in a bad spot on turn and river. Its easy to SAY, just c/f. But its just so temting to put out another bet or to call a small bet, especially if turn gets checked through. Also, its more expensive in pure money value, as the size of the C/R is prob more money than you will put in when you take other lines. The last problem, is that wew next to never get to see the turn. and we could actually hit 2pair/trips on the turn, and stack villain if he did flop big The good thing about this line is that you don't give your opponent a free card and you still get a cbet. These reasons aren't good enough though IMO to go against the dbitel rule of "don't C/R by default unless you havea very good reason to do so"
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Check/fold line with mp on the flop
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The merits of this line are obvious. It's not -EV, as maybe some of the other lines might be (its clearly 0 EV). You are OOP with a very marginal hand. Therefore, c/f certainly cant be terrible. The problem of cource is that if you keep doing this, you will be folding to cbets left right and centre and folding the best hand pretty often. This will no doubt be making your preflop call pretty damn -EV.
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Bet/Fold line with mp on the flop
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This line is simple and no nonsence. You have a hand that might be good, you don't want to get outdrawn, so you bet it. If you get raised, its pretty obvoius you're behind, so you fold it. The other really nice thing about this line, is that it balances out the times where you lead a flop with a flopped set. The drawbacks from this line is that 1) you might get bluff raised, as in general, leading looks weak. 2) you might get floated and you will be c/f all the turns where you don't improve and 3) you get no cbet.
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Check/call lead turn line with mp on the flop
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This is a line that you see widely avised around here in these marginal OOP situations. And TBH, I advoate it a lot too, b/c I think its a really good line. I also like taking this line with sets on dryish boards and I find that it works really well too, so balance isn't a problem. The line is slightly cheaper than a C/R. It gets a cbet and there might even be some value in the turn bet, as it gets called by overs and maybe even a draw (that might've come on teh turn). It also looks fishy enough that people don't bluff raise it and if you check the river, they usually check behind, so you can actually have showdown value with this line. Also, you give yourself a chance to outdraw your opponent on the turn if indeed you are behind, which c/r flop doesnt do. The drawbacks are that it is more expensive than just leading and that you don't get the protection you get with a C/R. That being said, its still prob the best line for the situation.
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NEW LINE!!!!!! line with mp on the flop
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So I hope I've given a useful summery of the other possible lines so far. And now I will hopefully give you ma new line to consider. The new line is to c/c the flop and to c/f the turn if he bets and if he checks, either lead/block river or to check to induce a bluff. I'm sure you've seen this line the whole time from donks. You raise your AK, then cbet the flop. You then check behind turn and then bluff when checked to on the river, then they call, and you think "ZOMG WHAT A FISH!!!". But for a few reasons I'm about to give, I think they took the +EV line, and you took a -EV one. I also see a lot, the exact same thing, but instead of c/c river, they lead it and I fold, thinknig WTF did they have. The reasons this line works is: 1) People raise light preflop. 2) People cbet close to 100% of the time HU 3) importantly, people next to never double barrel on the turn. 4) People don't check behind made hands on the turn often enough. So, basically, this line is just as cheap as any of the others. Gives us very good information about opponents hands. Loses the least when behind. Wins the most when ahead. Gets villain to cbet. And gives us a chance to draw out if we are behind. The problems with the line is that 1) it lets opponents draw out on us if we were ahead 2) its hard to balance it out with a line we'd take with a strong hand 3) we might fold the best hand if villain like to double barrel or semibluff a draw on the turn.
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New line oop with mp on the flop
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I do this sometimes myself, but I try to be very selective about when to do it--mainly to cut down the variance. For example, I will only call when I have a pair and there's no A, K, or Q on the board. My thought process behind this is that AK, AQ, and KQ missed. But also there have been plenty of times when a JJ type hand has bet on a Q-high flop and then it checked down only for me to be beat. My point is that there are plenty of hands that bet a A-, K-, or Q-high flop and then check the turn that a small to mid pair are behind. So I don't bother with these boards. I also almost never call unless I have position and am closing the action. I think my reasoning goes without saying. And finally, I normally don't call full pot-sized bets. This is player dependent, of course, but if I'm going to call, I want it to be fairly cheap and not be with a bloated pot. So if someone bets 2/3 the pot and the above conditions apply I will normally call and play the turn. Any bet of 1/2 pot with the above conditions is an instacall for me. These conditions make this play have a very high percentage success rate for me. But I do agree with another poster that this is also a play for people who have good table feel because you can get into trouble with this play if you autocall the river every time Villain bets 2x pot.
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Button ($95.40) Hero ($206.30) BB ($133.90) UTG ($157.10) MP ($110.90) CO ($108.40) Preflop: Hero is SB with Kd, Qd. UTG raises to $8, 3 folds, Hero calls $7, 1 fold. Flop: ($18) 5s, Kh, 8d (2 players) Hero checks, UTG bets $10, Hero calls $10. Turn: ($38) Jd (2 players) Hero checks, UTG bets $22, Hero calls $22. River: ($82) Ad (2 players)
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meh, I don't like C/R here. I just really feel he's going to check behing real often. KQ and all underpairs check behind. As do AQ and AT or any other ace he double barrelled with. Maybe even some 2pairs check behind, like KJ and the like. I think he's very rarely going to bluff on this river, given how the hand has played out. If he doesn't have the ace, it's most likely a scare card for him, as you could've just made aces up. or the flush. As a result, I like leading this river. I really don't like 30-40 one bit. I think he just calls that bet with far too many hands. I much prefer making a healthier bet. Not sure if I prefer 60 or a push though
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UTG: $85.80 UTG+1: $38.50 CO: $52.75 Button: $98.75 Pokey: $175.05 BB: $115.50 Pre-flop: (6 players) Pokey is SB with Ah Ks. UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, CO raises to $2, Button folds, Pokey calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls. My standard, though unusual, play: I don't like raising AK from the blinds. Usually, you build a big pot that you'll have to play OOP against someone who has a good hand, and that's messy -- especially with AKo, which makes TPTK-type hands. I smooth-call, and the monkey house comes along for the ride. Flop: Ac 6h 6c ($8, 4 players) Pokey checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, CO is all-in $50.75, Pokey calls....
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I go for the check-raise, and the bet comes like a hammer. I call it, knowing that I'm pot-committed to calling any raises, but expecting the hand to wind up heads-up at this point. Why call the huge bet? 1. I have a very strong hand, and there's no way in hell anybody can know that before I called the push. 2. Last-to-act makes a tremendous overbet into a tiny pot -- that doesn't look like the behavior of a 6 to me. I smell a weak ace or a smaller pocket pair. 3. Pushing can't fold out hands that beat me, but might fold out weaker hands that would call (slowplayed KK, AQ, flush draws, something similar). No weaker hand is getting anywhere near correct odds on a call, so I might as well invite them along. My intention is that if I'm called, I'll push any turn..
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Hero ($218.60) BB ($294.40) UTG ($189.25) MP ($185) CO ($240.33) Button ($49.40) Preflop: Hero is SB with As, Js. Hero posts a blind of $1. 1 fold, MP raises to $8, CO calls $8, 1 fold, Hero (poster) calls $7, 1 fold. Flop: ($26) 4d, 2s, Ac (3 players) Hero checks, MP bets $20, CO folds, Hero calls $20. Turn: ($66) Kc (2 players) Hero checks, MP bets $50
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fold. Most 1/2 players would check behind any hand you beat, or make some sort of preposterous twelve-dollar bet. I think this is perfect.
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Villian is 22/16/3 after only 40 hands. He seems to be a decent/good player. I was playing TAG at 16/12/3. Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is UTG with Qc Qd Hero raises to $4, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls. Flop: 8c 4h 3s ($12.5, 3 players) BB checks, Hero bets $9, Button calls, BB folds. Turn: Th ($30.5, 2 players) Hero bets $25, Button raises to $84
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villain is likely decent enough to be paying some attention. He also knows you are tight. Given those two thoughts on a relatively drawless board, there is no way your queens are good. That was a perfect flop for him to slowplay against you. He knows you either have AA-TT or AK. Once you fire again he knows your range even better, and puts in a nice value raise. Villain has a set here most of the time....two pair is unlikely. You have two outs. Check the turn to control the pot size. A backdoor flush draw is unlikely. You're probably way ahead or way behind. Call a reasonable turn bet (pot-sized or less). Make a nice sized blocking bet at the river. Fold to any raise, even a min-raise, over your blocking bet at the river. As played, if villain sees you as TAG, then he's not raising your turn bet with TPWK (89s, for example). I think you can fold there. You should have checked, then either called or raised, depending on your read. He'll bet a lot of stuff you beat, because you showed weakness by checking. But he won't raise (or call) with very much that you beat. Note that this is because he seems like a decent player. Vs. some showdown-muppets, I just bet-bet-bet all 3 streets.
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4) 99 5) 76s 6) J8o 7) 73o
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1) Raise or complete (opponent dependent) 2) Fold 3) Fold/complete 4) Raise 5) Complete 6) Fold 7) Fold
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Villain is 28/17/2.5, sig sample. Hes a multitabler, at least 3, im on another one of his tables. History: On another table, I post bb, first hand, raise a limped pot with AKs. 2 callers, incl. villian. Flop is KJ8, 2 diamonds. Villian is SB, checks, I pot it, other villain folds. SB pushes, I fold. UTG: $47.90 UTG+1: $38 CO: $64.80 Button: $152.20 EMc: $174.50 BB: $132.80 Pre-flop: (6 players) EMc is SB with 2d 4d UTG calls, 2 folds, Button calls, EMc calls, BB checks. Flop: 2c 4c 7d ($4, 4 players) EMc bets $4, 2 folds, Button raises to $12, EMc raises to $44, Button raises all-in $151.2, EMc ?
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We're losing to 22, 44, 77, 74, and 72. 77 is the only one halfway likely, and you think he'd raise preflop with that. We're beating: AA-88, A7, and flush draws. Instacall to me. I don't like the flop 3-bet becasue : - You don't have that much pot equity. If the opponent has a good draw -- and many are very feasible here -- you get sucked out on a lot. If the opponent has an overpair, if the board pairs your a cooked goose. - You don't have position, which ties in with... - You are betting a large portion of your stack, which leads to... - The pot is becoming a wildfire, growing out of control, which leads to... - In many cases where you get outdrawn, you will be pot committed and must get felted. Last, but definitely not least, - You have zero FE. One component of the EV behind this 3bet must be FE. Since you have none, you lose a bunch of the EV behind the raise. All these things tell me not to re-raise. The choice now becomes call or fold? Since there is a very good chance the opponent is on a draw (or several draws), I make the call. Also part of this is the 4 outs to fill you have.
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SB bets $67.35 (All-In), BB calls $67.35, Hero folds.
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standard
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Hero ($288.15) UTG+1 ($75.30) MP1 ($268.80) MP2 ($238.05) CO ($195) Button ($75.30) SB ($169.55) BB ($183.40) Preflop: Hero is UTG with Qs, Qc. Hero raises to $8, 1 fold, MP1 calls $8, 5 folds. Flop: ($19) Qd, Js, 8d (2 players) Hero bets $20, MP1 calls $20. Turn: ($59) 7d (2 players) Hero checks, MP1 bets $42, Hero calls $42. River: ($143) 2c (2 players) Hero checks, MP1 bets $102, hero? villain is 39/9 in 80 hands. should i block the river?
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Bet the turn. Though, c/c turn, block river isn't awful I guess.
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Villain in Question is 26/4/.5 after 35 hands CO ($174.85) Button ($218.40) SB ($130.35) BB ($282.95) UTG ($210.45) Hero ($502.40) Preflop: Hero is MP with Ah, Ac. UTG calls $2, Hero raises to $9, 2 folds, SB calls $8, BB calls $7, UTG calls $7. Flop: ($36) 2s, 4d, 7c (4 players) SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets $16, Hero raises to $40, SB raises to $121.35, BB folds, UTG folds, Hero?
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Flop raise is smallish bc I didn't see alot of draws. Interesting bc a larger one more or less commits me to a call. Comments appreciated on that too would be appreciated. give he didn't raise pf QQ,KK is very unlikely, and I doubt this passive of an opponent plays this strong with a smaller pair. he likely wouldn't reraise QQ or KK preflop (have a handa at the same table where he didn't) hm.. if he can have QQ, KK here.. i think its a call now that I think of it. I read the hand wrong and thought he was UTG and limped. In that case, I would fold. KK and QQ *were* in his range, right up until he pulled a check-REraise all-in. Your opponent has a postflop aggression of 0.5 and he just checked and then three-bet for his entire stack on a complete nonsense flop. You are dogmeat damn near always. Save your $81 and get out of the hand. Basically, you need a much stronger and much more specific read on this villain to justify a call here.
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Arguments on the other side
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To those saying fold (which is pretty much every1)...here's a question for you. Lets say you change AA to 22, tehn what do you do? n excellent question. However, a few things change with this assumption. - First, the odds that villain has a set just fell by 33%: it's now impossible for him to have 22. - Second, villain's chance of having AA just increased by 500%. Instead of one way to have AA, he's now got six of 'em. - Third, against a two-pair hand (unlikely, I agree) we're now way ahead instead of way behind. I can see villain going to the mat with AA much more easily than with KK, here. By increasing the chance of AA by 500% and decreasing the chance of a set by 33%, I think it swings the situation to a call. Note that I didn't call AA an "easy fold," and I'm not calling 22 an "easy call," here. I think we're skating around a fairly EV-neutral position, but I think AA is on the -EV side and 22 is on the +EV side. Folding here is just lol. He's short, the board is totally innocuous, you have AA. wtf. You sure as hell shouldn't be raising the flop if you're folding this.
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Hero ($106.40) SB ($142.90) BB ($241.70) UTG ($83.50) MP ($91.25) CO ($88.75) Preflop: Hero is Button with 6c, 7c. UTG raises to $3, 1 fold, CO calls $3, Hero calls $3, 2 folds. Flop: ($10.50) Kc, 9h, 8c (3 players) UTG bets $15, CO folds, Hero calls $15. Villian with stats of 30/2.2/7 over 170 hands so seems like his raise is screaming AK QQ KK AA especially UTG. Calling here seems the right answer as villian's overbet is showing that he has a strong hand and is not willing to fold it. Therefore there is no fold equity for Hero. Does anyone concur?
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I have often thought about this. The problem though is that your hand NEEDS to see both remaining cards. If you just call here and he blasts the turn you find yourself in a tough spot and often have to fold. Also, theres no such thing as zero fold equity. If he has AK here I think he might be capable of laying it down. QQ is an easy laydown for him and the rest he is calling with. I'd rather take down the pot here or make sure that I see all remaining cards. A) Reread fimbulwinters post on making an all in raise. We seriously need like less than 10% for him to fold. There is FE. Even with a draw like this (correct if I'm wrong here) you don't need FE. Your pot equity is very high here. Push b/c you have any odds you might need with that monster draw, and he might not pay off as much if a club hits. And you might get him to lay down a scared JJ or QQ. Remote, but possible.
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Argument against pushing
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i'll go ahead and pull this back to the front page because pushing here sucks a lot. The problem though is that your hand NEEDS to see both remaining cards. If you just call here and he blasts the turn you find yourself in a tough spot and often have to fold. Regular flush draws and straight draws and boat draws and what have you need to see both cards, too. If you miss, and they bomb the turn, you may have to fold. Welcome to draws. If you push the flop, your EV if you always get called was already posted: you are like a 4% favorite, and you make a few bb. If you call and play poker on the turn, you stand to make far more than a few bb. Without pulling out EV calcs because they are overated, use the following logic: Suppose hero has Ac2c. Are you really folding the flop? You obviously shouldn't, because your implied odds vs someone with a premium defined hand are very large. Are you folding to his turn bet, assuming he doesn't pot it? I hope not. Again, implied odds. So, why the heck would you fold a SF draw on the turn UI? Put another way: We can either take a 4% edge, with all the money in, or we can call him down, and save ourselves a PSB on the river when we miss, and get that last bet in when we hit. Clearly, the latter is better. Pushing this hand with 0 FE is a waste of a perfectly good SF draw. Don't play poker - go flip coins.
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For someone who has played almost no NL. What is useful specifically about that flop lead?
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Generally in NL, it is much better to be leading the betting OOP instead of check/raising or check/calling. There are various reasons such as 1) Not building big pots OOP w/ marginal hands 2) Not allowing fish to play better by check/raising.. You want to check/raise in spots where you definitely know what to do when you get action (ie you are bluffing or you have a nut type hand) 3) Good way to build pots OOP when you have huge hands and still disguise your hand 4) It's a cheaper form of bluffing, and you force OTHERS to make a big bluff raise into you.
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Villain is 27/8/8 over ~75 hands MP2 ($93) MP3 ($19.22) Hero ($48.20) Button ($49.35) SB ($49.50) BB ($55.30) UTG ($45.20) UTG+1 ($45.75) UTG+2 ($25.45) MP1 ($54.43) Preflop: Hero is CO with Ks, As. SB posts a blind of $0.25. 3 folds, MP1 raises to $3, 2 folds, Hero calls $3, 3 folds. Flop: ($6.75) Kc, 5d, 8s (2 players) MP1 bets $5, Hero calls $5. Turn: ($16.75) 2d (2 players) MP1 bets $6, Hero calls $6. River: ($28.75) Qc (2 players) MP1 bets $20, Hero folds. Final Pot: $48.75
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Why raise the flop? I think this is a classic WA/WB situation. I agree - the board is draw free. There can be no advantage to raising the flop, since the opponent can't make a mistake if you do. No hands you beat will call a raise. I think the real problem with raising the flop, as Macquarie pointed out, is that it allows my opponents to play perfectly against me. QQ and lower folds, AK probably doesn't go away, and AA probably doesn't go away either. Infact, I'll probably lose a lot more to AA by raising than I would otherwise.
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Arguments for raising the flop
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Raise the flop to 15. If he calls he's likely checking the turn to you, in which case I'd likely check behind. If he checks the river then value bet. Standard. I believe part of hodelm isn't only geting weaker hands to bet into you, but also trying to induce money to get into the middle when you have the best hand. If he folds then so be it, but you're also begating the possibility of an opponent out drawing you. Also, if you plan to take the line you took, then you have to be prepared to call most river bets because you've shown no strength an really have very little idea where you stand. It's just a guessing game at that point, and how many cards and what's the size of the bet that is going to make you fold the most? I'm not a big fan of making large pots with big slick, so that's my two cents.
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Villain in this hand is a decent player but over-aggro particularly preflop. Can be tricky postflop. Something of a calling station I think but I have seen him make some tough laydowns also. Should I have bet the flop? If he bet, should I have check/raised? What's your line on the turn? TWP ($262.80) MP ($84.10) CO ($100) Button ($370.37) SB ($109.08) BB ($101) Preflop: TWP is UTG with Js, Ts. CO posts a blind of $2. SB posts a blind of $1. TWP calls $2, 1 fold, CO (poster) checks, Button raises to $12, 2 folds, TWP calls $10, CO folds. Flop: ($29) 9h, Ks, 6s (2 players) TWP checks, Button checks. Turn: ($29) 7c (2 players) TWP...?
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given you limp/called pf (actually, thats standard for me, i dont like raising JTs, its one of hte few connectors i truly believe plays better as a caller in a raised pot...) betting the flop with the intention of 3betting all in is standard. checking is ok, were yoi planning on raising or calling? i like checkcalling more then raising given stacks. lead the turn, if the PFR is a real donk who raises pf w/ AK then checks htis board, you can call a raise profitably, but obviously he's not folding it. if he's meekish and checks with AQ, AJ, QJ, etc (any raising hands) QQ, JJ, who knows, he's folding them for your bet. so it's a good spot to semibluff. what it breaks down into is if you bet you can call a raise from a big hand he could have, but most of the time he's given up and this is your pot, so take it because jack high probably isn't good vs a PFR.
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To remind: my friend is a good player. His main game is PLO8 but he is a good holdem player, too. He is aggressive, but pretty tight. He can be tricky, but usually isn't. What do you guys think of my line? And what do you put him on? UTG ($262.80) MP ($84.10) CO ($100) TWP ($370.37) SB ($109.08) BB ($101) Preflop: TWP is Button with Kd, As. CO posts a blind of $2. SB posts a blind of $1. UTG calls $2, 1 fold, CO (poster) checks, TWP raises to $12, 2 folds, UTG calls $10, CO folds. Flop: ($29) 9h, Ks, 6s (2 players) UTG checks, TWP checks. Turn: ($29) 7c (2 players) UTG checks, TWP bets $30, UTG raises to $100, TWP pushes...
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i LOVE mixing in checks when i raise preflop. I also raise alot to warrant needing to check behind every so often. Anyway, this isn't really the type of board a check is great. You say his pf hand range (loosely) is a pp or suited connector. fine, great. a check minimizes vs set. but gives a free 2outer, which is fine, but only if he'll give you some action unimproved. Will he? maybe. suited connectors though hit this flop. but you hit it harder. so get some value. Anyway, I bet this, and normally the full pot. Given you mixed it up, I like the turn bet, (although the turn was a potentially disastrous card) and his c/r is weird, as well. I like your thought process
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Villian is 50/10. SB ($64.60) BB ($133.80)Hero ($105.95) UTG+1 ($91.05) MP1 ($34.83) MP2 ($27.15) MP3 ($139.35) CO ($87.50) Button ($173.35) Preflop: Hero is UTG with Kh, Ks. SB posts a blind of $0.50. Hero raises to $4, UTG+1 calls $4, MP1 calls $4, 2 folds, CO calls $4, 3 folds. Flop: ($17.50) 8s, 9c, 5d (4 players) Hero bets $15, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, CO calls $15. Turn: ($47.50) 7c (2 players) What is heros plan?
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So do you raise more PF? You don't mean flat-calling do you? this is precisely why I almost never 4xbb raise utg at a calling station table with a hand that I'm pretty much autobetting the flop. raise more if you think it will cut down on number of callers, limp reraise if you think even a 6xbb or 8xbb raise will get called multiway. our biggest problem is that these guys while willing to call our preflop bet, will likely not call the inevitable flop bet without something that has overpair beaten. maybe a draw which is the best you can hope for. the biggest problem is that your flop bet is so many times bigger than your preflop bet due to the multiple callers preflop. on the turn you can try checking to control pot size but even calling 2 1/2 pot bets will have you pretty much all in.
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MP2 ($21.50) Hero ($51.55) Button ($129.80) SB ($30.25) BB ($65) UTG ($53.60) UTG+1 ($88.60) MP1 ($19.50) Preflop: Hero is CO with Qh, Qd. 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.5, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls $2. Flop: ($5.75) 5h, 8d, Td (2 players) UTG+1 bets $2, Hero raises to $6.5, UTG+1 calls $4.50. Turn: ($18.75) 5s (2 players) UTG+1 bets $11.5, Hero ??
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A problem with calling is that it gets you blasted off the best hand on the river by a scare card. I really like to know your image as well as opponent's. Tell me you raise this flop (and preflop) with more than just an overpair and i think its a push. Again, this also depends on your read of opponent - does he use stop and go as a tester (which many opponents will do if you have the right image) or will he never build the pot without the goods (= check/caller with a ten/JJ/underpair)?
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Grunch: $104.20 UTG+1: $103.65 CO: $58.55 Button: $33.55 SB: $99.70 BB: $119.80 Pre-flop: (6 players) Grunch is UTG with Jd Jh Grunch raises to $4, 3 folds, SB calls, BB calls. Flop: 2c 9d 8c ($12, 3 players) SB checks, BB checks, Grunch bets $12, SB raises to $24, BB folds, Grunch ...
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I think villains range is JT AA KK QQ JJ TT 89s nfd 88 99 22 TPGK bluff - thats 13 hands and we beat 5 of them and can be outdrawn by a few We are folding here because -we have no reads - ur hand is not that strong given the action and this board - there is a good chance that we make a FTP mistake on future streets since we don't know what cards we want to see, and the initiative has been taken away from us. - This line is common for a donk with an overpair or set. Call flop raise. If Villain checks turn, don't allow the trap -- check behind and snap off up to 2/3 or less on the river. If Villain leads the turn, you can safely fold. When Villain min-raises, it means several things in my mind at this level: 1) often a set. They simply want to get more money, and they think min-raising will keep you in the hand. 2) sometimes a bluff with a low-card board. It's incredible how many players assume that a raise means AK and they'll challenge you on a board that doesn't connect with AK. 3) OOP, rarely but possibly a draw trying to scare you and get to the river without a turn bet. Without reads, I call and muck to a significant turn bet.
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combo draws and good hands on the flop -Image/Reads:
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Imagine the PFR is a LAG who cbets a lot, but gives up UI on the turn. Then obviously, a bet/3bet line is inferior to the C/R, as you lose his potential cbet. If however, the PFR is very agro and can raise semi-weak leads with air/weak made hands, then the bet/3bet line is superior as we trap more of opponent’s money in the pot. As well as our read on our opponent being important, our own image is important. If for instance, we have been seen to C/R big with a monster hand before, then it might be best to C/R big next time with a combo draw, as we’ll have a lot of FE. Also, the tighter our image, the weaker our draw can be that we’re either C/R or bet/3betting as we’ll have more FE. If however, we have a very loose image, then its best to stick to very strong draws, as we will get looked up more often. Lastly, as I’ve already stated above, our read on villain is important as to how many draws we can play fast. If villain is a nit, then we can play a lot of draws fast, if he is a calling station, then very few.
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BB ($121.40) UTG ($97.35) UTG+1 ($99) Hero ($154.35) MP2 ($129.50) CO ($98.50)
Button ($83.70) SB ($113.85) Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Ac, Kc. 1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $3.5, Hero calls $3.50, 3 folds, SB calls $3, BB calls $2.50. Flop: ($14) Kd, As, 7s (4 players) SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets $10, Hero raises to $25, SB raises to $110.35, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $85.50 (All-I |
Also, I usually don't call preflop but I felt like it this time. Don't hate, now I realize we're too short for me to call. Do you honestly think SB is c/r'ing the preflop raiser who was followed by a raise with just a draw? That's two people showing a lot of strength on a board with an ace and king. Most people just assume any preflop raise has AK, and then this guy shows no fear of the bet and raise. I just don't see anyone doing this with a FD. I think at least one of them has a set the vast majority of time.
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Stack sizes: UTG: $110.65 UTG+1: $265.45 CO: $114.20 Button: $186.30 Hero: $98.50
BB: $128.15 Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, CO folds, Button calls, UTG+1 is a loose 60/5 callstation donkey. Button is a 15/10 multitabler and plays reasonably well postflop. BB is a 9/3 nit. What do you do with 1) Ajo 2) A4o 3) K5s 4) 99 5) 76s 6) J8o 7) 73o |
; 1) Raise or complete (opponent dependent) 2) Fold 3) Fold/complete 4) Raise 5) Complete 6) Fold 7) Fold
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SB is a fish, BB is a decent 19/6 regular. UTG ($127.15) Hero ($262.10) Button ($200) SB ($107.35) BB ($219.10) Preflop: Hero is MP with As, Kd. 1 fold, Hero raises to $8, 1 fold, SB calls $7, BB calls $6. Flop: ($24) Ac, 8s, 5h (3 players) SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $16, SB raises to $32, BB calls $32, Hero calls $16. Turn: ($120) 7s (3 players)
SB bets $67.35 (All-In), BB calls $67.35, Hero folds |
standard
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